This question about post #52 came from a reader, which I thought was worth a new post: "Could you not infer that Matt. 24 refers to the 7 years of tribulation since Jesus quotes Daniel 9 concerning the abomination of desolation? This event in the middle of the 70th week seems to mark the beginning of the "great tribulation". I take this to be the last 3 1/2 years, but the events described by Jesus are the 7 years of tribulation."
A discussion on Matthew 24 is worth many posts, the main reason being that there seems to be a double fulfillment: (1) in the far past when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in AD 68-70, and (2) still in the future, during the 7 year tribulation period. And yes, we will cover this issue more, for sure!
I think that Matthew 24 covers the seven year tribulation plus a period of undetermined (and undeterminable) length preceding it, yet he omits any mention of a pre-trib rapture at what many of us would consider the proper chronological point. In Matthew's defense, I'd state that not every writer is bound to cover every topic at what we would consider the appropriate point, which makes the Bible seem much like a puzzle, finding the pieces in various places to make up the whole picture.
Yes, surely the Daniel 9:27 and Matt 24:15 verses can be linked (since Matthew says so!), and yes, the abomination of desolation event is surely part of the events that occur at the midpoint of the tribulation. 2 Thess 2:3-4 also occurs at that time. And about those midpoint events, Matthew adds "When you see these things, then ... flee ...". And it is at that point that Matthew says in 24:21, "and then there will be great tribulation, the worst of all time, past, present, and future." . Notice that when we say 'Matthew says' we are really saying 'Jesus says', since this is a chapter-long teaching by Jesus.
Jesus does not seem to give us a clear starting point for the tribulation. In fact, he sort of glides into the tribulation with his discussion about "the end is not yet", "the beginning of birth pangs", & "and then the end will come". These last words take place seemingly at the halfway point, if Matthew 24 is in chronological order, which it may not be! The whole book of Matthew is more in thematic order than the chronological order that Luke is in. (Luke's purpose was to "compile an orderly account")
In comparison, note that in Revelation, the start of the tribulation itself is quite clear -- in Rev 6:1-2 when the white horse with the pseudo-christ, the false christ, the Antichrist rides forth to conquer, at the first of the trumpets, which is the first of the 21 plagues of the tribulation in Revelation.
If you'd like to discuss further, add a comment to this post.
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I agree that Jesus does not give any info about the rapture. It would seem somewhat disconnected to the context if He had. In Math. 24, he seems to be answering the disciples question concerning the "sign of His coming and the end of the world." More specific to the context is His comments at the end of chap. 23: " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'" This seems to add creedence to the pretrib rapture somewhat since the events He describes indicate a future that is targeted at Israel.
ReplyDeleteThe desolation of the "house" of Israel certainly could have fulfillment in the events of 70 A.D.; however, the time when "they" say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" is yet futuristic since it has not happened yet. I take this to be one of the main motivations for the time of Jabob's trouble.
Yes, in Matthew 24:2, Jesus says that "not one stone of Herod's temple will be left upon another, they shall all be thrown down." And then the disciples ask three questions (compared to only two in Mark).
ReplyDeleteThe first question "When will these things be (the destruction of the temple)" clearly applies to AD 70, and may or may not refer to the end times. The second and third questions are clearly more end times oriented "sign of your coming", and "the end of the age".
Regarding the Matt 23 ending where the Jews will acknowledge the name of Jesus, you have rightly made this an important verse (see text in Anonymous comment). It would be very difficult to show that it was fulfilled in any reasonable or spiritual sense in the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. (With mild apologies to preterists)
Good thinking.
When Jesus gives His Olivet Discourse, the Gentile church, which was a mystery shown to Paul many years later, was not in existence. Jesus was not speaking to church members, but to Jewish men that asked Him about the end of their age.
ReplyDeleteWe do not speak of "Paul's 70th week," but rather, "Daniel's 70th week. This week is centered on Jews, not on the church. Why then, would we even look for church related things in the Olivet Discourse? We are not there. No, not even the "one taken; one left" is related to the church. Those verses are not speaking of the rapture. Those "taken" are cast into hell, and their bodies left for the vultures. Jesus makes no hint of the first 3 1/2 years, but starts speaking of the 70th week at the midpoint. No, the verses just before that are not concerning the 70th week at all. One cannot find the first 3 1/2 years there at all. In fact, all five mentions of the 3 1/2 years in Revelation are also speaking of the last half of the week. However, John does show is that the trumpets are in the first half of the week. Jesus said that those living in Judea must flee when they see the abomination, and we find that twice in Revelation chapter 12, showing us that chapter 12, chronologically, is right after the exact midpoint. From chapter 11 to chapter 13, are the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, so all of these are VERY close to the exact midpoint.
It is a myth that the first rider on the white horse is the antichrist. John does not even get to him until chapter 13!!! It is also a myth that the 70th week is to start there at the first seal. No, a careful look at chapter 4 and 5 will show that the first seal was broken VERY soon after Jesus ascended into heaven!! The first hint of a wait, is given us concerning seal number 5. In fact, that seal is for the martyrs of the church age. Therefore, we are still waiting on that seal t6o be finished.
lyle.cooper@cox.net
Hey, Lyle, good to see you on the blog. You've got SO MUCH in your comment that is worthy of discussion, that I'd never get to the business of posting for time spent in answering.
ReplyDeleteFor my regular readers, I would state that I agree with hardly any of the points you have made (and as you know, I am not alone in my disagreement).
Early on, in the conceptual stage for this blog, I determined that my purpose was to proclaim rather than defend -- but that I wouldn't shy away from defending if I was able to keep proclaiming.
Most of the points you've made come out of a different system of understanding Biblical prophecy, and are ideas and concepts that I had planned to address sometime -- and WILL at some point, although probably not all in one post, and maybe not soon.
Would you post again and mention what your prophetic world view is (postmillennial?), what authors you are reading for your prophetic worldview (preterists? reconstructionists?), and whether you have a website or blogsite where you explain your view more fully (or someone else's website).
His blessings to you, and look up! He could come even today!
Larry